Home > Windbag Wisdom > My Pleasant Saturday Exchange with Ted Butler

My Pleasant Saturday Exchange with Ted Butler

August 18th, 2008

I’m a critic. I’m fairly good at it. That’s not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes I ruffle feathers. Okay, more than just sometimes. Worse, I tend to have a big mouth but I don’t always know what I’m talking about. If I knew everything, I would spend most of my time enjoying life and just a few minutes a day making huge piles of money. I’m still learning. Maybe some day I will wise up and shut up.

But for now, I mostly just have a big mouth. For example, a week or so ago I said that Ted Butler was making “truly sad” statements about the Central Fund of Canada being subject to delays in getting silver deliveries. I also stated that he was libeling Barclays by claiming it was naked short 15-40 million ounces of silver. Turns out there is more to the story. I was partially wrong. Mr. Butler was partially right. I was partially right. Mr. Butler was partially wrong. I’ll deal with that in another post, but I wanted to provide the atmosphere and background for my “pleasant” Saturday exchange with him.

While I’d like to spare you the blow by blow and just summarize our exchange, Mr. Butler apparently doesn’t trust me to treat him fairly and therefore he insists that I post our entire sequence of e-mails or nothing at all. If this were a mere dust up over the topic of naked COMEX or SLV short selling, I wouldn’t bother. But we are talking about a historic decline in the price of silver and what may have contributed to it. It is fairly difficult to predict where the price of silver is headed after a beating like this. It is even harder without identifying the culprits.

Apparently, Mr. Butler does not like that I’ve placed the Hung Brothers under suspicion. He blames the usual suspects, the commercial shorts or dealers. I’m a heretic because I believe the commercials in COMEX silver will not have covered their short positions until both open interest and their short positions have declined. Mr. Butler, on the other hand, practices a true religion that treats the commercials as a single entity and therefore only their net positions matter to him. If commercials add long positions while their short positions stay the same, that is covering according to him. He certainly has the right to believe that in his world. But not in mine. The term cover to me (and many others) means a short position that is closed out, resulting in a reduction of open interest. If I had wanted to refer to a decline in the net short position of the commercials, I would have used the word decline. If I had wanted to refer to long positions that offset short positions, I would have used the word offset. I like to be precise.

This may seem like semantics. I assure you it is not. Consider a simple example: a trader who is short one spot month contract. This trader wants to cover. She listens to Mr. Butler and therefore believes adding a long position is the same as closing a short position. So, she buys a futures contract expiring a few months out. She now has a short position in the spot month and a long position in a forward month. Has she covered? If you’ve read even a few of my rants or those of Professor Fekete you’d know the answer is no. A “Last Contango” of explosive backwardation in the spot market vs. the futures market would finish this trader off.

This is not just a theory. For example, any trader in Minneapolis Hard Red Spring Wheat futures would have been destroyed earlier this year had she tried to cover her short March contracts with long May contracts. At its peak in late February, there was a backwardation between those two dates of more than $6 per contract or $30,000! That’s about 10 times the margin requirement. In other words, say bye-bye. And there was no way to get out from under this huge loss by waiting it out; the March spring wheat contract expired about $3 or $15,000 in backwardation to the May contract. You think this can happen in wheat but not silver?

Look, Mr. Butler has made it clear many times in both his published commentaries and in his private discussions (not only with me) that he is the final word on the silver market. His public self-anointing includes taking full credit for Barclays publishing a bar list of its silver holdings at long last and for the run on silver Eagles (via his mentor Izzy). He is the man. The establishment. Yeah, I know it’s ironic. And like all good establishments, it is in his best interest to monopolize ideas. Nothing positive can accrue to him as a result of debating me or others out in the open. Mutilation with a rusty knife indeed. It would only dilute attention that is now focused on him, attention that has been cultivated over many years.

Yet in all those years, Mr. Butler has had exactly two brilliant ideas as far as I’m concerned. First, that silver represents an excellent investment. Second, that silver should be held in a form that is nobody else’s liability. I admit, this is more than enough to make him Silver Analyst Numero Uno. But these ideas are not unique or all-encompassing. Just because nobody has repeated them as many times or for as many years, it doesn’t mean he has a patent on them.

Don’t get me wrong, Mr. Butler deserves respect for convincing so many investors to buy silver. My intention is not to disparage him. Countless people have made a lot of money following his advice, and most of them will make even more money. I can’t say that about myself (at least not yet). But let’s look at this pragmatically for a moment. Mr. Butler has the advantage of getting paid to write. His appeal is equally strong with the tinfoil hat crowd as it is with the average working stiff looking for an answer to the mess that is the U.S. and global financial system. Chances are if you have an interest in silver, you instantly recognize his name. It’s not like I’m going to get very far hiding under his skirt, parroting what he will claim are his own original ideas. In other words, the only reason to bother with Mr. Butler is if one has different, and perhaps even important, ideas about silver. And if one has different, and perhaps even important, ideas about silver then one must bother with Mr. Butler.

I’m not surprised that he automatically labeled my opposing viewpoint as false. I am surprised that he called me out and then begged for “no more contact”. It didn’t have to be like this. I wasn’t looking to air our dirty laundry in public. That Mr. Butler took it that way, and that he made such a colorful effort to indicate his displeasure with my daring intransigence, is telling. I expected to discuss subtleties with him, including why the term “cover” should be used with precision. I wanted to get his take on the pattern of trader concentrations over the past few weeks. I was thinking perhaps something like the recent debate between Jason Hommel and Prof. Antal Fekete might be possible. No such luck.

I’ll admit when I’m wrong. The fact is that I’m not (yet) wrong in this instance.

*********

Tom,

I promise this will be the last time I write to you unsolicited, but I think you would want to know when you published completely erroneous information. The dealers did cover a decent number of short positions in the current COT, 4811 net to be exact. The key to reading the report is to first look at the net positions. You are not doing that, and it is causing you to disseminate false information. Over the past month they have covered more than 20,000 contracts, or the equivalent of 100 million ounces. I know you want to argue otherwise, but this decline is solely about affording the dealers the opportunity to cover shorts, as they have clearly done. If it is your intention to spread false information, please disregard this.

I take it you have been unable to contact Spicer.

Ted Butler

**********

Ted,

I did have a chance to talk to Mr. Spicer, though it was Phillip–the one who founded the whole thing in the 1960’s. I have been thinking about and writing up my response and hope to post it shortly.

There is no reason why you shouldn’t write to me unsolicited–I welcome criticism and actually feel honored to be criticized.

As with many things, you and I have different definitions for “cover”. Yes, net commercial short positions have declined by around 20,000 since mid July, with a decline of 10,000 short and an increase of 10,000 long. If we stop there, you might be right. But, let’s break it up a bit. The 10,000 short decline was actually completed by July 29–with silver still around $17.50. Silver was at $19.50 a couple of weeks before and the decline to $17.50 was nothing extraordinary. It was reasonable to expect the commercial shorts to cover on the decline, and they did. Between July 29 and August 12, silver declined another $3.50. Did the commercial shorts cover in a big way as one might expect if they were looking for such a big decline, much less responsible for it? Why don’t we let the 900 contract decrease in their short positions between July 29 and August 12 be the judge of that? In fact, the shorts [Edit: I had meant to say "commercials"] went LONG 8,000 contracts during this period. I hope you are not trying to imply that an increase in reported long positions is the same as short covering!

In any case, what I find interesting and perhaps even encouraging about the current move is the precise fact that more commercial shorts have not covered. Perhaps they were waiting for something like this Friday’s washout. We’ll have a better idea this next Friday. Or maybe they will cover on the way back up, ensuring that silver recovers to a reasonable price level pretty quickly.

Regards, Tom

**********

I hope you are not trying to imply that an increase in reported long positions is the same as short covering!

Tom,

I’m not trying to imply that, as that is exactly what I am saying. It’s simply math. If the commercials, as a group, are net and overwhelmingly short, any increase in their gross long position over any increase (or decrease) in their gross short position is short covering. That was precisely my point. You said, in your recent article that the dealers didn’t cover shorts in the nlast report. That is wrong. Period. Do with it what you wish, but you stated false info

Ted

*********

Ted,

What happened to the Raptors and T-Rexes? When it’s convenient to view the commercials as a cohesive group, you do so. When it’s convenient to break them up into arbitrary segments, you do so. Is it just possible that the commercials who went long 8,000 contracts were not the same commercials who have been net short as a subgroup? Not even saying likely, but just possible? If you are willing to concede that, I did not state “false info”. I’m looking forward to the chance to have a discourse with less bite, and I do understand I will have to earn that.

Regards, Tom

**********

Tom,

Since you asked, the of the 4800 contracts net bought by the commercials, the raptors added to their long position by 2800 contracts and the T rexes covered shorts for the balance. So what? The dealers covered, as a group, 4800 contracts of their totral net short position. You stated they didn’t cover. I pointed out that this was in error. I thought you would want to know. The bite comes from the BS [Edit: Mr. Butler had spelled the word out but I'm abbreviating it for the sake of modesty] equivocation and double talk I always get. It won’t happen again, as I have no intention of correcting you again

Ted

**********

Ted,

A commercial goes long COMEX to cover a short position OFF COMEX. I said “commercial shorts have not covered in COMEX silver”. Would love to have the opportunity to take this debate public.

Regards, Tom

**********

Tom,

You have my permission to reprint the entire exchange we have had from the beginnig, but not to reproduce it except in it’s entirety. As far as continuing this debate, privately or publicly, I’d rather mutilate myself with a rusty knife. Please, no more contact

Ted

silverax Windbag Wisdom

  1. Andy
    August 18th, 2008 at 14:13 | #1

    “I?d rather mutilate myself with a rusty knife…” ouch.

    I’ve never been able to figure out if Butler understands that physical silver is traded on the COMEX and that a good portion of the commercial short interest is covered with physical silver.

  2. eddy sharpe
    August 18th, 2008 at 14:19 | #2

    An interesting exchange between Tom and Ted. I’m saddened to hear that Ted is dropping out. Dialog like this is useful for the rest of us. Also, a good debate sharpens the minds of the two debaters.

  3. Joey
    August 18th, 2008 at 14:43 | #3

    Ted is the Godfather of silver commentary. He might not be right about everything (who is) but I think he deserves to be addressed with a lot more respect than Tom did (sorry Tom).

  4. Argentum
    August 18th, 2008 at 15:36 | #4

    “Ted is the Godfather of silver commentary”

    And we all know what happens to Godfather’s - they get wacked ;)
    It would have been better to have a bit more open and respectful dialog, but even Jason and Allen didn’t last very long when they tossed the silver about.

    Me, I’m just a wise guy soldier on the ground learning any bits I can.

  5. John
    August 18th, 2008 at 16:48 | #5

    There appears to be only one ‘guru’ of merit in the silver market, and it aint Ted or Tom. Its Dave Morgan. While the whole world of precious metals analysts were busy trying to predict bottoms, low risk buy points, etc only Dave Morgan sat it out waiting for a true spike down which he stated he thought would come in August.
    I am real surprised how this spike down has caught the majority of guard, so much so that respected analysts are now arguing about the reasons. Yes it was a sharp sell off but technically it was nothing out of the ordinary for silver. Also I think the silver COT has lost much of its relevance anyway.

  6. chris k
    August 18th, 2008 at 18:38 | #6

    Wow, i’m disapointed in ted butler. I have always looked forward to his commentary, but he came across very “its my way and no other way could possible be right” in this exchange. Very uncaring. I could understand if Tom was rude, but he wasn’t.

  7. Mike
    August 18th, 2008 at 19:07 | #7

    Tom,
    How you find the time to communicate and pull up so many skirts is beyond me. My hat is off to you. Most do not like having their undies inspected but in my experience you?ve had your skirt lifted high and proud and with a pleasant self-effacing humor. With that you?ve earned the right to be a bit probing.

    In the process of supporting two-way debate you?ve opened my eyes a bit wider and forced me to clarify my own thinking. I?m grateful.

    Just don?t sneak a peek when I become the King someday. I will crush you. ;-)

  8. jb
    August 18th, 2008 at 19:14 | #8

    Dear Tom,

    I appreciate very much your insights and frankness on your website.
    In regards to this situation, I found the following very enlightening:

    http://tinyurl.com/4m9tgu

    Thanks,
    jb

  9. vince
    August 18th, 2008 at 19:21 | #9

    re:John —There appears to be only one ?guru? ::

    Both Tom and Franklin sanders had warned of a possible big downside weeks before.

    As to Ted he responded about as well as Jason did to Allen
    as soon as they were contridicted with facts they clamed up.

    Hey we are all just trying to learn a liitle more… no one has all the correct answers .
    Thanks Tom keep up the good fight.

  10. lou chip
    August 18th, 2008 at 19:56 | #10

    ahh, the most infamous vitues of all, to believe one knows all, the pride of being unteachable, thats a pity for ted, keep up the great work tom, it is greatly appreciated by many

  11. Jennifer4TheFuture
    August 18th, 2008 at 20:16 | #11

    I’m glad Tom engaged in this discussion with Butler and was able to post it in its entirety.

    I am deeply suspicious of Butler. Unfortunately, for reasons I can’t quite fathom, the precious metals investment community, insofar as their is such a thing—after all much of it exists online–seems enthralled to emotive, reactionary, conspiracies. Trading and investing require dispassionate analysis based on evidence, and an understanding of the systemtic markets forces at work. Butler and others like him are happy to promote a view of the global economy as if it were run by the Smoking Men in the X-Files television series. Remember them? Anything bad that to metal investors happens is because of ‘them’ — not because gold and silver are extremely small markets embedded in a complex system of currencies and commodities, and various country’s economies.

    Note that Tom at no point in his exchanges with Butler impugned his motives or engage in ad hominem attacks. Butler did upon Tom. In m experience people respond the way Butler did when they have no evidence or facts to back them up.

    Precious metals investing seems destined to get more mainstream, and to start drawing in more minds that those marinated in the survivalist self-pity mode. There will be more debate and discussion such as Tom has tried to promote, and the reaction from the fear and conspiracy addicts will be hysteria and an attempt to shoot the messenger.

    Also, I don’t want to make it seem like I’m cheerleading Tom here. For instance, I don’t see what all the brouhaha is about the shortage of fabricated metal for retail investors. Couldn’t it just be a bunch of North American gold and silverbugs on a buying spree? Nothing Tom or Turk have said indicates this might not be the case, imho.

    Btw, Tim Silvers has a new article out–don’t panic, buy: http://www.silverbrothers.com

  12. Jennifer4TheFuture
    August 18th, 2008 at 20:28 | #12

    Just wanted to say I’m sorry for the typos and convoluted syntax in the last post–didn’t read what I wrote very closely and so submitted it unedited.

    Also, I just thot I’d share an action I took today inspired by a time from Bill Cara, in his blog. Weekly EIA inventory data gets released on Wed. He suggested a straddle on some major stock, implying that the release might spike the price one way or another.

    So I bot one call and one put on PAAS for Sept option, strike price 25. Premium risked is about 340 dollars. We shall see what we shall see. . .

  13. August 18th, 2008 at 20:42 | #13

    Jennifer,

    Your post was just fine. Did you see my strangle discussion from earlier today (the entry prior to this one)? It hadn’t occurred to me to use silver stocks–that might be even better! You might want to repeat this comment there.

  14. Kipling
    August 18th, 2008 at 21:12 | #14

    I take partial responsibility for the sell-off last Thursday. I got busy working until an hour after the floor closed, then Yikes! an unmistakeable outside reversal, and I had built a margined position. I bailed out of Sept. @ 14.16 and Dec. @ 14.29 and stayed long 1 Dec. Needless to say, I had mixed emotions as I watched the swandive with fascination. No slippage in my fill, by the Grace of God. Sorry for the hot potato. Now, do I take delivery? Maybe.

  15. John
    August 18th, 2008 at 22:28 | #15

    re Vince:

    I respect Franklin Sanders alot but if you have been reading his commentaries he has been calling bottoms nearly every day since the price started declining last March.

    I wish he would stop doing it because he is making a fool of himself.

  16. Peter VC
    August 19th, 2008 at 15:02 | #16

    Tom,

    If Mr Butler chooses to opine in public but refuses the scrutiny, then the probability increases that mr. Butler is opinionated. Both yourself and Prof Fekete have effortlessly shaken his tree and he fell out. Now he screams bloody murder, maybe because you are a threat to his cash flow !… LOL

    Peter VC
    Belgium

  17. messianicdruid
    August 19th, 2008 at 17:26 | #17

    It’s always the same; fighting over definitions of words. Let’s just admit silver is a long term investment. Technicals are useless. Go with the obvious, pay cash and bury it in the earth, deep. If you can’t leave it alone for ten years, don’t buy.

  18. Rob
    August 20th, 2008 at 01:26 | #18

    While I appreciate his efforts on behalf os silver investors I think Mr. Butler relies aon the assumption that there is an impending shortage and looming default in silver deliveries, and that the big shorts are trapped.
    Butler said no way that SLV could aquire 130moz od silver anywhere south of $10/oz or so if at all. Well here we are 200moz later and more silve keep showing up by Ted says there can’t be much more. Wde he don’t know neither do we so shy assume something we can’t know and risk out money on it.
    He also say the shorts are trapped. It .looks more to me like they just don’t want to cover. whether because they thing they can cover lower or they really are fully hedged we shouldn’t base decisions on what we would like to think.
    There’s alot of silver out there. And a lot is finding its way into strong hands. But what do you think happenned to those billions of ozs. that dissappeared from govt. vaults? it didn’t all get used up I’m sure of that.
    Maybe Tom has a handle on what might be out there and what the current mine supply vs industrial demand looks like. My guess is its about even and scrap/disinvestment is about equal to or just short of investment demand so we have a wash. That would mean known silver stockpiles are increasing-which they seem to be.
    So where’s it all coming from and how can Butler or anyone speak of a delivery shortage?When there is no shortage-not for a long time- as long as the price is right.

  19. Torsten
    August 20th, 2008 at 02:05 | #19

    “Unfortunately, for reasons I can?t quite fathom, the precious metals investment community, insofar as their is such a thing?after all much of it exists online?seems enthralled to emotive, reactionary, conspiracies.”

    Hi Jennifer,

    I couldn’t agree more. There’s a saying from Henry Ford which might explain it:

    “Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is the probable reason why so few engage in it.”

    I have to admit that I liked the ideas of Butler too until I met Tom on the net more than two years ago. Many people in the investment community like simple ideas. That’s why pump and dump strategies are such a success and that’s why Butler has so many fans amongst investors. He delivers what they long for, namely a simple idea to get rich overnight. There is the biggest short position in the world and there is only one billion ounces of silver left. And if things don’t work out as they are supposed to be then he comes up with the next simple explanation that the market is manipulated.

    I’m glad that Tom has created this blog now. As a thinking silver investor one feels quite lonely on the web, LOL.

  20. lou chip
    August 20th, 2008 at 10:14 | #20

    hey if silver wheaton has been buying silver for 2-3 years for $3 an ounce, couldnt have been that hard for slv to pick up silver around $10

  21. August 21st, 2008 at 16:30 | #21

    in all actuallaty it was PAUL VAN EDEN that called it the best,,,he said:silver is such a small market and should be traded on upswing,and NOT horded.

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